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Post by Peter on Sept 1, 2023 14:19:39 GMT 8
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Post by prince on Sept 1, 2023 14:26:09 GMT 8
So, legitimate question. Does our constitution explicitly say that Indigenous are not recognised? My research says that it was amended in 1967 to ensure that indigenous were no longer excluded from voting and no longer not to be counted in the census.
I don't know why we need to further create divisions. If you were born in this country or you are now a citizen, everyone should be recognised equally in the constitution.
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Post by IronJimbo on Sept 4, 2023 8:30:31 GMT 8
So, legitimate question. Does our constitution explicitly say that Indigenous are not recognised? No. The 'problem' is that it doesn't explicitly say that Indigenous Australians were here first Which Dutton has now proposed instead of ATSIC v23.0
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Post by kenkong on Sept 4, 2023 8:43:12 GMT 8
So, legitimate question. Does our constitution explicitly say that Indigenous are not recognised? No. The 'problem' is that it doesn't explicitly say that Indigenous Australians were here first Which Dutton has now proposed instead of ATSIC v23.0 What we really need to do is put a proper ranking system into the constitution. And not just Indigenous as number one-that's to simplistic, they need to determine which indigenous tribe were the first to walk the land bridge. They get ultimate priority and recognition. So the aboriginals from the north for example would have greater rights, funding and recognition than the aboriginals from the south, after all they were here first. Then the English, then Italians/Greeks etc. from the WW's, Vietnamese etc. all the way down to the lowly Africans who were the most recent wave of immigration. This is the only fair and equitable way of the 'first in best dressed' rules we are voting on...This is what it's about isn't it, that not everyone is equal and depending on when you go there you are treated differently?
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Post by IronJimbo on Sept 4, 2023 8:53:26 GMT 8
No. The 'problem' is that it doesn't explicitly say that Indigenous Australians were here first Which Dutton has now proposed instead of ATSIC v23.0 What we really need to do is put a proper ranking system into the constitution. And not just Indigenous as number one-that's to simplistic, they need to determine which indigenous tribe were the first to walk the land bridge. They get ultimate priority and recognition. So the aboriginals from the north for example would have greater rights, funding and recognition than the aboriginals from the south, after all they were here first. Then the English, then Italians/Greeks etc. from the WW's, Vietnamese etc. all the way down to the lowly Africans who were the most recent wave of immigration. This is the only fair and equitable way of the 'first in best dressed' rules we are voting on...This is what it's about isn't it, that not everyone is equal and depending on when you go there you are treated differently? You've just provided a very good explanation of the difference between equity and equality
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Post by DropBear on Sept 6, 2023 10:13:31 GMT 8
I don't know why we need to further create divisions. If you were born in this country or you are now a citizen, everyone should be recognised equally in the constitution. The way I'm seeing it at the moment, getting recognition in the constitution is a means to the end, not the actual end itself. The end game seems to be a small minority gaining vast amounts of money, power and control which recognition in the constitution will aid but failure to achieve will not necessarily stop. I may be wrong (indeed I hope I am) but there is plenty of evidence to support such an assertion. The fact that Noel Pearson (indigenous lawyer and activist) has already stated that if we vote no, there will be continuous running "protests" and other actions should give you a pretty good idea what we're really dealing with. A bunch of people who won't accept the democratic decision of the majority of Australian people. Do we really need them having influence over our Governments? ?
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Post by prince on Sept 6, 2023 12:41:14 GMT 8
The whole yes vote is tanking so much that we shows the current government is out of touch
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Post by IronJimbo on Sept 7, 2023 9:15:16 GMT 8
I don't know why we need to further create divisions. If you were born in this country or you are now a citizen, everyone should be recognised equally in the constitution. The way I'm seeing it at the moment, getting recognition in the constitution is a means to the end, not the actual end itself. The end game seems to be a small minority gaining vast amounts of money, power and control which recognition in the constitution will aid but failure to achieve will not necessarily stop. I may be wrong (indeed I hope I am) but there is plenty of evidence to support such an assertion. The fact that Noel Pearson (indigenous lawyer and activist) has already stated that if we vote no, there will be continuous running "protests" and other actions should give you a pretty good idea what we're really dealing with. A bunch of people who won't accept the democratic decision of the majority of Australian people. Do we really need them having influence over our Governments? ? Of course Grievance is now a business model. If 'reconciliation' is somehow achieved, a very large gravy train would come to a screeching halt
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Post by flanman on Sept 10, 2023 17:45:57 GMT 8
The irony is that is it called a "Voice", but it is only advisory - not a voice.
FM
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chris
Full Member
Posts: 115
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Post by chris on Oct 11, 2023 17:58:46 GMT 8
Seems to be doomed , hopefully albo is doomed along with it
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Post by DropBear on Oct 12, 2023 15:22:48 GMT 8
Seems to be doomed , hopefully albo is doomed along with it I'd like to think that after Saturday it'll be all over and we can move on with life but somehow I've got the feeling that this is only the beginning. Pretty sure that even if the referendum is soundly defeated (i.e majority of voters rejected it) the Voice will still raise its ugly head in some other form in the not too distant future.
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Post by prince on Oct 13, 2023 9:00:08 GMT 8
Seems to be doomed , hopefully albo is doomed along with it I'd like to think that after Saturday it'll be all over and we can move on with life but somehow I've got the feeling that this is only the beginning. Pretty sure that even if the referendum is soundly defeated (i.e majority of voters rejected it) the Voice will still raise its ugly head in some other form in the not too distant future. i hope not. Just more important issues to focus on. By all means set consult with indigenous if they feel this will improve things.
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Post by IronJimbo on Oct 13, 2023 15:44:02 GMT 8
If the ATSIs don't have a voice in the parliament (if you don't count the 11 Indigenous MPs, of course), what does the Minister for Indigenous Australians do?
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Post by DropBear on Oct 14, 2023 6:03:17 GMT 8
If the ATSIs don't have a voice in the parliament (if you don't count the 11 Indigenous MPs, of course), what does the Minister for Indigenous Australians do? According to the vast majority of punters - Allocate funds that the country really can't afford to programs that don't work to help people who don't consider themselves to be Australian.
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chris
Full Member
Posts: 115
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Post by chris on Oct 14, 2023 9:26:33 GMT 8
Is there betting odds for albo to resign on Monday
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Post by prince on Oct 14, 2023 9:30:45 GMT 8
I remember we had ATSIC which already was an indigenous committee. It didn’t work and was abolished.
Appears we have learnt nothing.
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Post by DropBear on Oct 14, 2023 14:12:38 GMT 8
Is there betting odds for albo to resign on Monday I'm not betting that he'll resign. He still hasn't achieved "Albos Moment in Australian History" yet. He'll keep trying till he gets it or totally screws the country.
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chris
Full Member
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Post by chris on Oct 14, 2023 15:44:44 GMT 8
How many times does he need to cry on tv
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chris
Full Member
Posts: 115
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Post by chris on Oct 14, 2023 16:39:06 GMT 8
That was fast , done and dusted no
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Post by DropBear on Oct 14, 2023 16:50:30 GMT 8
That was fast , done and dusted no No real surprise there and no real surprise at the reaction of the Yes campaign laying the blame for the defeat at the feet of Peter Dutton.
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Post by IronJimbo on Oct 15, 2023 1:56:07 GMT 8
ACT - 61% Yes Northern Territory - 62% No
Says it all really...
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Post by Peter on Oct 15, 2023 14:01:14 GMT 8
So how much money did that cost?
Ffs. Do an audit of how much money is wasted and currently not even get to First Nations people before forming committees to spend and ask for more that will be wasted.
Albo has divided the country and made things worse for First Nations people in his PR stunt.
He is not John Howard with the guns He is no Kevin Rudd who said sorry to the stolen generations
He is a loser who tried unsuccessfully to be remembered.
He should resign and work for Qantas.
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Post by IronJimbo on Oct 16, 2023 11:38:24 GMT 8
So how much money did that cost? Ffs. Do an audit of how much money is wasted and currently not even get to First Nations people before forming committees to spend and ask for more that will be wasted. Albo has divided the country and made things worse for First Nations people in his PR stunt. He is not John Howard with the guns He is no Kevin Rudd who said sorry to the stolen generations He is a loser who tried unsuccessfully to be remembered. He should resign and work for Qantas. He already works for Qantas...
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Post by cottoneyes on Oct 23, 2023 13:01:35 GMT 8
He is not John Howard with the guns He is no Kevin Rudd who said sorry to the stolen generations Albo was John Hewson with the GST birthday cake - any questions asked and completely unable to provide any details at all. Albo has at least 2 terms to get his sh!t sorted (unless someone from his own party knifes him), far better to have implemented his idea of the voice, get the first group together and say I'm going to take this to the referendum, let's work together to get some runs on the board. Then gone to the voters with the model in the second term of his government and be able to say here is your detail and here is how it is already working with these runs on the board, no secrets here. I've no doubt it would have passed (albeit with around 55% vote) had he gone that route, instead complete lack of ability to read the room.
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Post by prince on Oct 23, 2023 13:24:47 GMT 8
Exactly. It should have been trialed first. If it was productive then try and cement it in the constitution.
I remain sceptical though as I think it has all Been done before and if you already have 13 indigenous members of parliament plus the minister for indigenous affairs then what the hell are they doing. They should already be consulting over the main issues plus figuring out surely by now where to spend the money and how to close the gap.
I am also sceptical to think the closing of the gap and how to ‘fix the indigenous issues’ is not even fixable. I mean how May governments and billions of dollars have been spent on this.
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Post by comfortablynumb on Oct 24, 2023 9:02:49 GMT 8
Exactly. It should have been trialed first. If it was productive then try and cement it in the constitution. I remain sceptical though as I think it has all Been done before and if you already have 13 indigenous members of parliament plus the minister for indigenous affairs then what the hell are they doing. They should already be consulting over the main issues plus figuring out surely by now where to spend the money and how to close the gap. I am also sceptical to think the closing of the gap and how to ‘fix the indigenous issues’ is not even fixable. I mean how May governments and billions of dollars have been spent on this. Yup, no amount of playing the race/symbolism/virtue signalling cards is going to fix the inconvenient truth that for many indigenous, the gap (and worse) can't be closed. The cultural issues are insurmountable.
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