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Post by Peter on Dec 2, 2022 18:51:04 GMT 8
Let the dust settle and when the sponsors say, go to nice. They will.
But agree I think jan will retire now.
And its time,for messick to go. He shouldn’t have said they were doing a 2 day race in 2023 until it was confirmed.
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Post by Peter on Dec 3, 2022 3:46:52 GMT 8
Everyone: Women should 100% get their day in the spotlight in Kona without interference from the men's race*
(*Unless, of course, it inconveniences the men's race in any way.)
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 3, 2022 4:35:41 GMT 8
Wurf's take on the news, per (US) Triathlete magazine: "If I was a single guy I’d be going to Kona on that weekend" - Cam Wurf via Instagram They also have an interview with Messick: www.triathlete.com/culture/news/10-questions-with-ironman-ceo-on-this-weeks-world-championships-split-announcement/He's a little vague on how it works for Busso, Taupo and Argentina: "We also have three more qualifying races in 2022: We have New Zealand, we have Western Australia, and we have Argentina. And we need people to know there that the men at least aren’t qualifying for Kona. They’ll be qualifying for the world championship at the other destination to be determined". |
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Post by roxii on Dec 3, 2022 7:58:37 GMT 8
So is that Max validating the opinion that Kona is not a real world champs. Surely if it’s a bona fide world champs you race it wherever.
He is saying Kona is Kona because of where it is not because of the title.
Man Ironman have screwed the pooch on this one.
Greed has bitten them in the arse and has potentially caused a shed load of damage to their brand.
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Post by Peter on Dec 3, 2022 9:39:57 GMT 8
Wurf's take on the news, per (US) Triathlete magazine: "If I was a single guy I’d be going to Kona on that weekend" - Cam Wurf via Instagram That is GOLD. |
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Post by roxii on Dec 3, 2022 9:58:48 GMT 8
Wonder if the undie run will now look like sexist exploitation when it’s women only.
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Post by aplover on Dec 3, 2022 16:04:25 GMT 8
He is saying Kona is Kona because of where it is not because of the title. Man Ironman have screwed the pooch on this one. Greed has bitten them in the arse and has potentially caused a shed load of damage to their brand. Spot on this a complete cluster F#ck for IM |
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Post by Peter on Dec 3, 2022 17:20:17 GMT 8
People also have to remember there are people doing the sport that have zero knowledge of the history. And in 10 yrs time, people will be fine with it only being in kona ever second year.
No one wanted the 2 days. Then it happened and everyone loved it.
We would have seen 5 mins of Chelsea’s win if it was the same day.
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zed
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Post by zed on Dec 3, 2022 17:35:06 GMT 8
People also have to remember there are people doing the sport that have zero knowledge of the history. And in 10 yrs time, people will be fine with it only being in kona ever second year. No one wanted the 2 days. Then it happened and everyone loved it. We would have seen 5 mins of Chelsea’s win if it was the same day. Yeah good point and the 2 day format much better for pros. |
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Post by roxii on Dec 3, 2022 17:47:24 GMT 8
Absolutely the 2 day format was great. Women’s race was a great watch. Probably watched more of the women’s than the men’s.
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Post by andrewearlwood on Dec 3, 2022 18:40:10 GMT 8
Sure the two day format was great for coverage. Splitting the race b tween venues, and hence taking the race out of Kona? not so good. In fact, disastrous IMO.
The community (and there will always be grizzles on that front, especially given the explosion in real estate on the Kona coast overf the past two decades) don’t like their town and their highway closed down for two days, especially when one of those is a weekday. OK.
But what if one pro race was on the Saturday with only 50 athtletes on course that day (ie. no Age groupers etc) and the various aid stations only open for a limited window of around an hour or so to cover that small period. That would limit the number of ‘volunteers’ required. It would also mean that the highway could be opened up earlier for through traffic.
in fact the stations could probably be professionally staffed for such a small field of professional athletes - who are all likley to pass through within a few minutes (at the beginning of the race) to no more than an hour or so (at the end run home from the energy lab). The next day, the other pro race, the AG world champs and Kona freak show could be held, as per now; if the first part of Palani is used as well as the Pier for transitions, I reckon you could rack over 3000 bikes that day (so Ironman Corp can still make their coin).
If the locals still don't like the highway being closed for two consecutive days, then hold race A on a Sunday and race b the following Saturday.
This would beat the sh!t out of what ironman corp are planning now.
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Post by Peter on Dec 3, 2022 18:44:48 GMT 8
Fact is. Messick lied.
Then got caught out.
And this was his solution.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 4, 2022 2:52:44 GMT 8
It wasn't so much lying as it was arrogantly assuming he could steamroller the community on the basis of a handshake deal with the mayor. But yeah, he got caught out. That was risky and he's taking another big risk now. He's still negotiating Plan B with Nice. By going public, he's handed them all the leverage. What's Plan C?
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Post by prince on Dec 4, 2022 5:13:13 GMT 8
Nice is also not confirmed as I believe Ironman want $$ for the hosting rights.
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Post by prince on Dec 4, 2022 5:25:49 GMT 8
People also have to remember there are people doing the sport that have zero knowledge of the history. And in 10 yrs time, people will be fine with it only being in kona ever second year. No one wanted the 2 days. Then it happened and everyone loved it. We would have seen 5 mins of Chelsea’s win if it was the same day. It's not in Kona every second year, by the way. It's every year but I think that is going to be all anyone really cares about, 10 years or not. Messick just hasn't read the play. He has done an Elon. its not just about the history IMO. Kona is recognised as being one of the toughest IM's out there due to the wind (usually) and the heat etc. Whoever wins Nice, the critics will always say, 'yeah, but x wouldn't have won in Kona". the same for age groupers. many who dont hardly follow triathlon, know about the 'Hawaii Ironman" and know about it because its a hard Ironman. |
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Post by roxii on Dec 4, 2022 6:38:15 GMT 8
Nice is also not confirmed as I believe Ironman want $$ for the hosting rights. This has been Ironmans problem for years now. Obviously they can’t make races financially viable through entries and sponsorship alone so they basically “sell” the hosting rights, touting themselves as a bringer of tourism dollars. Which is great as long as the town you want to use needs you more than you need them. Don’t know how much Nice “needs” Ironman. I suppose we will find out. |
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Post by Peter on Dec 4, 2022 8:48:22 GMT 8
They could always totally destroy their brand and take money from Qatar or Bahrain
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 4, 2022 10:14:49 GMT 8
This has been Ironmans problem for years now. Obviously they can’t make races financially viable through entries and sponsorship alone so they basically “sell” the hosting rights, touting themselves as a bringer of tourism dollars. Which is great as long as the town you want to use needs you more than you need them. Don’t know how much Nice “needs” Ironman. I suppose we will find out. WTC needs Nice more than Nice needs WTC. They don't want to screw this up - too much potential new profit is at stake. Nice ticks all the boxes: - Reliably good weather in September/October. - Proven course and organisation already in place. - World class tourist destination. - Convenient to a large pool of IM-distance athletes (i.e. Europe or North America). - Exploitable triathlon mystique (WTC will bang that drum hard). Lanzarote arguably hits all five, but it made its reputation on being tougher than Kona. Barcelona is the next best option, with everything except the history. Maybe Vichy too, but it's down the destination rankings. Anything north of that in Europe comes with a good chance of crap weather in September. Penticton isn't a top tier tourist town and the weather gets iffy past August - maybe 3.5 out of 5. Ironman Italy and Portugal aren't in world class locations either and are relatively new, so 3 out of 5. That was St. George's problem. |
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Post by roxii on Dec 4, 2022 10:37:38 GMT 8
They should make a ridiculous offer to buy Roth.
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robp
New Member
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Post by robp on Dec 4, 2022 14:19:36 GMT 8
Fact is. Messick lied. Then got caught out. And this was his solution. Dunno if he outwardly intended to lie ; rather counted chickens before they hatched? one article I read was that at the awards and in the days after he got a lot of confronting feedback on the impact of the Thursday race. ie people couldn’t get to work, lost wages , 2hr queues at the airport… either way poor form from a ceo…. |
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robp
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Post by robp on Dec 4, 2022 14:22:45 GMT 8
Oh to be a fly on the wall at PTO right now…..
This surely has to be good for them and their model.
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Post by triatx on Dec 4, 2022 22:47:09 GMT 8
So over the weekend at Busso and some discussions with people who have some insight.
1.The Nice deal is far from Done
2.Mainland USA is being looked at....not St George
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steve
Junior Member
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Post by steve on Dec 5, 2022 4:13:24 GMT 8
2.Mainland USA is being looked at....not St George If St. George is out, then it'll be about the destination. Which takes a lot of current U.S. venues off the table. Lake Placid is a contender. Panama City Beach might work too. Maybe Coeur d'Alene, although the weather is riskier. They'll never get the permits for Santa Cruz, particularly not if they want closed roads but trying to get anything done there in less than a year is daunting. None of those are top tier destinations, but they have more tourist cred than St. George. Or Tulsa or Houston or Chattanooga or Madison or Sacramento or... Oceanside would be a winner if they could get the U.S. Marine Corps to commit to allowing base access for the bike course two years ahead of time. The Marines are supportive, but if they have to close the base then they will close it. That's what scuppered the original Ironman California. |
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Post by Peter on Dec 5, 2022 7:38:22 GMT 8
They would have to pick a race that hasn’t sold out.
Or create a complete new one.
I’ll still back Nice then in Germany.
If USA. Probably Arizona
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steve
Junior Member
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Post by steve on Dec 5, 2022 8:33:23 GMT 8
They'll either have to cancel registrations for an existing race, or stand up a new, second race at an existing venue. Not necessarily the same weekend.
I don't think Arizona is a candidate. The swim is in a mud puddle and the bike is three laps on a crap course. Plus temps don't get bearable until November.
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Post by andrewearlwood on Dec 6, 2022 10:17:43 GMT 8
They could always totally destroy their brand and take money from Qatar or Bahrain Ironman Neom World Championships. You know it makes sense. Plus Ironman Corp could probably leverage $100 million in blood money / sports washing (tho AGers will still have to pay a zillion dollars and only get a pissy backpack and towel for that, and pros would probably still have to put up with a total prize purse under a million). The Beer mile would have to be replaced with ‘The Fizzy Bubbler’ mile tho. |
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Post by Peter on Dec 6, 2022 12:31:44 GMT 8
They should make a ridiculous offer to buy Roth. I've actually been thinking about this. Its would be a smart idea. Because the europeans would love The Ironman World championships in their backyard, and then the following year you yanks would love it in Kona. Then the PTO could step up with a bucket of cash if anyone won both in back to back years. |
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Post by andrewearlwood on Dec 6, 2022 15:23:16 GMT 8
They should make a ridiculous offer to buy Roth. I've actually been thinking about this. Its would be a smart idea. Because the europeans would love The Ironman World championships in their backyard, and then the following year you yanks would love it in Kona. Then the PTO could step up with a bucket of cash if anyone won both in back to back years. Actually, of all the alternatives to simply running the WC at Kona on the same day, THIS is probably the least sh!tty idea. Roth has a ‘legendary’ status in the sport second only to Kona. In fact, Ironman Corp could still squeeze both races each year for the maximum profit by having a Pro race and also a challenged athlete / AG WC for one gender with a field cap of say 500 for that ‘WC’ complement of the event and then a a general ‘lottery’ / corporate ‘ human interest / freak show’ event for both genders that starts about 45 minutes later via a rolling start process and capped only by the maximum number of athletes that can be squeezed onto the course or in transition. At Kona - 500 pro and elite age groupers could have a seperate transition area at the beginning of Palani, with 2500 ‘lottery / corporate / human interest / freak show athletes being squeezed onto the pier. In Roth, they seem to be able to run up around 3,500 on that course. If Frankfurt (the European champs) was run in early June, and Roth in late august/early September then there would not be the same potential clash of Roth was brought back into the ironman family … |
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Post by andrewearlwood on Dec 7, 2022 7:13:23 GMT 8
Mark Allen’s take. His views would also apply if the ‘alternative year’ WC was Roth. Only more so IMO.
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Post by andrewearlwood on Dec 7, 2022 7:43:56 GMT 8
I still think Kona is the real money spinner for Ironman Corp - and the one race I’d be interested in travelling to outside Australasia, so even if they rotated the pro race between Kona and Nice/Roth/wherever ‘the money’ to be extracted from the age-groupers and tri tourists is in Kona. As a single loop course at least 5000 athletes could squeeze onto that course. there is a heck of a lot of car parking behind the hotels on the first part of Palani - and when the pier was being renovated the transitions re-located there. Why not simply have a split transition area? The Pier could be reserved for ~2000 athletes (the single sex pro filed and those that genuinely qualify for the World championships plus the special needs area required for disabled athletes) with another 2,000 for lottery/corporate/legends in a “B zone’ transition area located the car parks behind the hotels. Those athletes participating the the B race would start in a rolling wave start from 7.30 (so an hour behind the pros and disabled waves) so when the get out of the water they could simply run up Palani for the 150 M before they get to the side access road instead of around the pier and at the end of the bike leg dismount at that access road and after their T2 do a little run down towards the pier and back so that that they end up running the same distance on the marathon (or have their T2 exist officially at 100M or so inside the car park to make up that small distance.
I guess the real issue is just how big an influx of tourists Kona can sustain over the IM weekend. This year, with 5000 athletes and supporters, prices of stuff were excessive and apparently the place was way overcrowded. But I suspect that the town could support a 1 day race with somewhere between 3500-4000 athletes racing.
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