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Post by andrewearlwood on Jan 23, 2023 19:31:47 GMT 8
Stop talking commensense Andrew. Surely this is about money at the end of the day, right. How much does it cost WTC to run the ironman world championship in Kona these days? Leaving aside prizemoney it must cost $2 million a race. At $1200 entry fee per paying smuck they only break even after about the first 1600 odd athletes. But if they can get another 2500 paying customers on the course (probably only at the cost of maybe another $200K, then the rest is pure profit). we know they can fit 2500 on the pier these days, just. We also know that they can put about 1500 athletes behind the hotels in the parking lot - and that’s even before any further development of the large track of open and disused land that google maps satellite view show to be available right next to that is taken into account. We also know that, given that the course is a one lap swim, one lap bike and one lap marathon that at least 4000 athletes can be on that course if the field is spread out sufficiently. so thinking about this further when dividing the field into two, the pier should be reserved for the 1500 serious insects in the gendered ‘world championships’ race (probably only 1000 women, if we are being honest) with the remaining pier spots being taken up by legacy athletes. then anything from 1500 to 2500 extra lottery, corporate and celebrity freak show athletes can have their transition behind the hotels. The field gets spread out by starting them off an hour apart, with pro and age group starts between 6.30 and 7am, legacy athletes off at 7.15 and rolling starts for the lottery freak show athletes between 7.30 and 8 am. with the later finishing the swim on the other side of the pier and running directly to their seperate transition area around the side of the hotels. The same rationale applies to this new Nice World championship race, except WTC could swap out legacy and lottery athletes for a simply combining of the traditional Ironman France race and the WC race (except for cutting out of the separate pro race for IM France, as that would get too complicated with the WC run on the same course that day.
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Post by aplover on Jan 24, 2023 3:18:07 GMT 8
Wouldn’t be an issue if they kept ‘the Hawaiian Ironman’ race running annually, with the ‘serious insect’ world championship race being split between two locations if the WTC must. *Each year have a single gendered world championship race rotating between Kona and Nice. Maximum field of 1500 athletes; * have a 2,500 odd athlete ‘Hawaiian ironman’ all genders catered for race for legacy athletes, and expanded lottery, corporate athletes, freak show yadda yadda - with rolling starts from 7:30 am and their transition area situated behind the hotels at the end of the Kona pier in the open blocks of land there; and * Nice to combine their ‘serious insect’ world championship gendered race and the annual Nice Ironman to be held on the same day along similar lines as the Kona race. * If WTC really want to make money out of Kona they should expand the legacy program such that any 8+ironman finisher can entered the race by right, in the year of their choosing, and be able to repeat this experience again after say a 3 year gap between legacy races. Repeat customers: that’s where the money is at. Have u been living under a rock k town is never gunna allow two IM races a year (even if split by months) after this year’s fiasco
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Post by andrewearlwood on Jan 24, 2023 3:51:58 GMT 8
Wouldn’t be an issue if they kept ‘the Hawaiian Ironman’ race running annually, with the ‘serious insect’ world championship race being split between two locations if the WTC must. *Each year have a single gendered world championship race rotating between Kona and Nice. Maximum field of 1500 athletes; * have a 2,500 odd athlete ‘Hawaiian ironman’ all genders catered for race for legacy athletes, and expanded lottery, corporate athletes, freak show yadda yadda - with rolling starts from 7:30 am and their transition area situated behind the hotels at the end of the Kona pier in the open blocks of land there; and * Nice to combine their ‘serious insect’ world championship gendered race and the annual Nice Ironman to be held on the same day along similar lines as the Kona race. * If WTC really want to make money out of Kona they should expand the legacy program such that any 8+ironman finisher can entered the race by right, in the year of their choosing, and be able to repeat this experience again after say a 3 year gap between legacy races. Repeat customers: that’s where the money is at. Have u been living under a rock k town is never gunna allow two IM races a year (even if split by months) after this year’s fiasco You have just completely misread my post. Go to spec savers. My suggestion involves a ONE DAY PER YEAR EVENT. A ‘serious insect’ world championship race starting from around 6.25am (that also has a large Legacy athlete wave at around 7.15am) and another event, entitled the ‘Hawaiian Ironman’ ON THE SAME DAY, with a rolling start from 7.30 am. Capice?
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Post by Peter on Jan 24, 2023 15:19:10 GMT 8
Wtc should pay kona to say they can’t have the race there anymore.
Be easier for them.
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steve
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by steve on Jan 25, 2023 5:04:09 GMT 8
If the race could be expanded to 4,000 athletes, WTC would have done it already. It's not just transition space. It's also permits and all the logistical support (including lodging, car rentals, food) required. The community push back wasn't just about traffic problems on the Thursday. Putting more (and slower) people on the course also means extending road closures. As it is now, they can start opening up the Queen K and parts of the run course once the field winds down to stragglers.
My bet is that WTC's biggest worry about Kona is whether the community will allow it at all on a long term basis. Last year's mess provoked a massive negative reaction, but there's been a love/hate relationship between WTC and the community for more than 20 years. It's been difficult to get local volunteers ever since the local organisation Valerie Silk created was replaced by a Florida-based corporation. There was one year when WTC had to re-schedule the race because the locals refused permits for the preferred date, ostensibly because a cruise ship was due in. But no one believed that was the real reason.
I think the better solution (assuming WTC see a problem, which I doubt) would be to move the age group championship somewhere - anywhere - else and keep the freak show and pros, rotating by gender if necessary, in Kona. They can then allocate slots to IMH as they've done. World championship slots can be allocated similarly.
Triathlon in the US has a huge problem with permits and course availability. Vineman/IM Santa Rosa didn't move to Sacramento because it's a better destination. Wildflower was crippled by California's long drought, but it was killed by county budget cuts. Smaller, high quality races are disappearing. Increasingly, what's left are low budget (but still high priced) events on small, constrained courses (e.g. multiple loops inside a briefly closed park).
Kona could go the same way. I think WTC knows that and is adapting accordingly.
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Post by andrewearlwood on Jan 25, 2023 10:15:21 GMT 8
If the race could be expanded to 4,000 athletes, WTC would have done it already. It's not just transition space. It's also permits and all the logistical support (including lodging, car rentals, food) required. The community push back wasn't just about traffic problems on the Thursday. Putting more (and slower) people on the course also means extending road closures. As it is now, they can start opening up the Queen K and parts of the run course once the field winds down to stragglers. My bet is that WTC's biggest worry about Kona is whether the community will allow it at all on a long term basis. Last year's mess provoked a massive negative reaction, but there's been a love/hate relationship between WTC and the community for more than 20 years. It's been difficult to get local volunteers ever since the local organisation Valerie Silk created was replaced by a Florida-based corporation. There was one year when WTC had to re-schedule the race because the locals refused permits for the preferred date, ostensibly because a cruise ship was due in. But no one believed that was the real reason. I think the better solution (assuming WTC see a problem, which I doubt) would be to move the age group championship somewhere - anywhere - else and keep the freak show and pros, rotating by gender if necessary, in Kona. They can then allocate slots to IMH as they've done. World championship slots can be allocated similarly. Triathlon in the US has a huge problem with permits and course availability. Vineman/IM Santa Rosa didn't move to Sacramento because it's a better destination. Wildflower was crippled by California's long drought, but it was killed by county budget cuts. Smaller, high quality races are disappearing. Increasingly, what's left are low budget (but still high priced) events on small, constrained courses (e.g. multiple loops inside a briefly closed park). Kona could go the same way. I think WTC knows that and is adapting accordingly. Thanks for this Steve. The Kona coast has developed significantly since was relocated to a small fishing village on a remote part of the big island in 1981. I suspect the real and sustained pushback will come from new and permanent residents to the area. It’s the same story around the world. Alan Jones used to go off like a frog in a sock on 2GB radio every year on the Monday after the annual sydney marathon for the same reason. However, there is also a bunch of positives that ironman brings to the community. In addition to the growth long term residents there has been growth in airb&b rentals, major hotels and tourism generally. Ironman represents a pretty big slice of the pie for the overall revenue take of that part of the economy. We know that the infrastructure could cope with 5000 athletes racing two days apart. So 4,000 on one day is doable when thinking about all the plant, equipment and so on that has to be installed, and the available accomodation etc. But the reaction against that was massive. The issue going forward is whether the township will still cop a single day event. If so, then I don’t think the issues you raise are insurmountable. Maybe the final figure won’t be 4000-5000 athletes on course, but using two transition areas would allow the race to expand to ‘something more’ than a field capped at 2000-2500. As I understand it, the bike course closes now at 5pm. Having two starts would simply see that closure expanded by an hour. Ditto with the run. I really don’t think that would be a ‘deal breaker’ with the community. Far from it. The only real issue if one puts aside arguments simply designed to distract, is whether the community wants ironman at all.
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steve
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by steve on Jan 25, 2023 13:11:25 GMT 8
The only real issue if one puts aside arguments simply designed to distract, is whether the community wants ironman at all. Exactly. After last year, the answer to that question could go either way in Kona. The majority of locals in resort towns don't see an immediate and direct benefit from major events. They don't own or manage businesses, they don't rent out their homes, they're not benefiting from overtime pay or a brimming tip jar. They are putting up with traffic, shortages and crowds in stores and general disruption to their routine. And with outsiders who can be a total pain in the ass. I lived on the Monterey Peninsula in California for 26 years. Local businesses did not need help from major events to make a killing every weekend. Events were welcome if they fit into the usual way of doing things: contained in specific venues, accessed via established corridors and adapted to the needs of the hotel and restaurant owners who have a huge influence on local government. The Sea Otter bicycle festival is a success because it's at the Laguna Seca (motor sport) race track, which is in the coastal hills abutting a former Army base with plenty of back country for off road events and a lot of old, mostly closed military roads for road bikes. Only one race goes off post, and that heads away from the peninsula and into the Salinas Valley farm country. Over the years, for example, they've tried doing a crit around Cannery Row (a tourist mecca) and a time trial along the coast. Those kinds of things were always one shot wonders. The business community threw a fit because their day to day business was disrupted and they weren't getting a big enough piece of the action. Same with the Tour of California. Closing roads anywhere on the peninsula, so they could start and head down the Big Sur coast, caused an uproar. It's gone. It's not just sweaty events that cause grief. What started out as a (very expensive) car show at Pebble Beach turned into Car Week, which grew across two weeks. It brought gigabucks to town. But it also grew past the point where locals were willing to put up with it, and it's being trimmed back. WTC needs to let memories of 2022 fade before they push the Kona envelope again.
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Post by andrewearlwood on Jan 25, 2023 19:47:12 GMT 8
“ The majority of locals in resort towns don't see an immediate and direct benefit from major events”
I’d hazard a guess that the majority of permanent residents on the Kona coast these days moved there after ironman was established in 1981 and did so because they didn't want to go to Florida to wait for god like all the other smucks. They have no connection to the business interests of traditional industry (commercial fishing) or tourism or anything other than the local super market and golf course. Of course they hate ironman. Especially in a Trumpy age where the inalienable right to drive a works burger 4x4 pick up truck randomly down the highway on a Saturday for no particular reason has taken on constitutional implications because of ‘freedumbs’. It was that sort of f*ckwittery that drove ironman australia out of Forster 18 years ago and threatens pretty much every race location eventually. capping the field at 500 would make zero difference, as would a 4000-5000 strong field: ‘freedumbs’ have been abridged because it may take another 10 minutes to travel down to home depot to buy stuff for that home repair job that has been postponed for a decade already. Or some such.
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steve
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by steve on Jan 26, 2023 4:50:16 GMT 8
It was that sort of f*ckwittery that drove ironman australia out of Forster 18 years ago and threatens pretty much every race location eventually. capping the field at 500 would make zero difference, as would a 4000-5000 strong field: ‘freedumbs’ have been abridged because it may take another 10 minutes to travel down to home depot to buy stuff for that home repair job that has been postponed for a decade already. Or some such. That's the reality. WTC need to wait for the general anger to decay down to background levels of NIMBYism before asking the community for more. We're stuck with the current scheme for at least four years. Maybe they'll reconsider if the men's race in Nice in 2025 is a financial flop. But not if it becomes a second cash cow.
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Post by roxii on Feb 6, 2023 5:05:59 GMT 8
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Post by Peter on Feb 6, 2023 9:16:19 GMT 8
you can listen now for free.
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Post by Peter on Feb 6, 2023 9:18:33 GMT 8
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Post by roxii on Feb 7, 2023 4:40:19 GMT 8
Had a listen this morning. Blah! I think most of the "controversy" is a beat up by the host to get more listeners. Messick makes pretty good sense and the host (not sure who he is) but was basically pushing all through the podcast to try and get Messick to admit the Ironman is a business and is there to make money. The bit where they say Messick went silent, if you listen to the pod it sounds like he is eating or drinking something. The bit where they say he cut the interview short, Messick said he was out of time to which the podcaster turned on Messick and said "so you don't want to answer any more questions"
I find it hard to take someone seriously who when they are reading an "ad" on their own podcast says his new goggles made swimming "so much funner"
And now the latest beat up is that Ironman have now banned him, to be honest cant say I blame them, but of course you have to pay to listen to that episode!!
To be honest if that is, as it claims "The worlds #1 triathlon podcast." then Id hate to listen to the number 2.
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Post by prince on Feb 7, 2023 6:26:17 GMT 8
Had a listen this morning. Blah! I think most of the "controversy" is a beat up by the host to get more listeners. Messick makes pretty good sense and the host (not sure who he is) but was basically pushing all through the podcast to try and get Messick to admit the Ironman is a business and is there to make money. The bit where they say Messick went silent, if you listen to the pod it sounds like he is eating or drinking something. The bit where they say he cut the interview short, Messick said he was out of time to which the podcaster turned on Messick and said "so you don't want to answer any more questions" I find it hard to take someone seriously who when they are reading an "ad" on their own podcast says his new goggles made swimming "so much funner" And now the latest beat up is that Ironman have now banned him, to be honest cant say I blame them, but of course you have to pay to listen to that episode!! To be honest if that is, as it claims "The worlds #1 triathlon podcast." then Id hate to listen to the number 2. 100 % agree. It feels like pure clickbait to see 'this is the episode that everyone is talking about' and 'Messick Walks out of the Interview'. I like Jack and have found most of his other podcasts fairly useful but he really showed a lack of professionalism here. HIs reasoning that Ironman should just reduce the cut-offs no matter what the age group, doesn't really pass the fair test. However, some of the points raised were valid. Moving Kona should have always been the last resort, as was having two days but to me more importantly it all seems pretty rushed which falls back on Messick. Ironman should have some good advisors, being someone from the past Like Crowie and someone from the current crop, like Brownlee.
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Post by aplover on Feb 8, 2023 4:11:47 GMT 8
Had a listen this morning. Blah! I think most of the "controversy" is a beat up by the host to get more listeners. Messick makes pretty good sense and the host (not sure who he is) but was basically pushing all through the podcast to try and get Messick to admit the Ironman is a business and is there to make money. The bit where they say Messick went silent, if you listen to the pod it sounds like he is eating or drinking something. The bit where they say he cut the interview short, Messick said he was out of time to which the podcaster turned on Messick and said "so you don't want to answer any more questions" I find it hard to take someone seriously who when they are reading an "ad" on their own podcast says his new goggles made swimming "so much funner" And now the latest beat up is that Ironman have now banned him, to be honest cant say I blame them, but of course you have to pay to listen to that episode!! To be honest if that is, as it claims "The worlds #1 triathlon podcast." then Id hate to listen to the number 2. 100 % agree. It feels like pure clickbait to see 'this is the episode that everyone is talking about' and 'Messick Walks out of the Interview'. I like Jack and have found most of his other podcasts fairly useful but he really showed a lack of professionalism here. HIs reasoning that Ironman should just reduce the cut-offs no matter what the age group, doesn't really pass the fair test. However, some of the points raised were valid. Moving Kona should have always been the last resort, as was having two days but to me more importantly it all seems pretty rushed which falls back on Messick. Ironman should have some good advisors, being someone from the past Like Crowie and someone from the current crop, like Brownlee. Agree
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Post by Peter on Feb 8, 2023 10:22:15 GMT 8
Jack likes to hear his own voice. There is no doubt about that.
His questions go so long.
The thing that gets me is he gets the guests. Big ones.
Only Bob babbit does bigger.
I cant listen to the podcast anymore.
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